both are. have fun fighting eachother in the mud.
All states are authoritarian, in that they are instruments by which one class oppresses the others. What this doesn’t say anything about alone, though, is which class is in power. In the US Empire, the capitalists are in power, and use the authority of the state to crush workers when workers rise up. In the PRC, the working class is in power, and the state keeps capitalists in check and appropriates their capital gradually.
The only way out of authoritarian control by any class is to get rid of classes entirely, which requires full collectivization of production. China is actively building towards that, the US Empire is opposing it. Until we get to a classless society, it’s better for the working class to be in charge.
In other words, class struggle will continue to exist even after the proletariat takes control. All of the tensions from class struggle continue to exist, only they are resolved in favor of the working class. This is what “authoritarianism” looks like, class conflict expressed in state response.
“the working class” meaning the (one) party tho, lol.
Yes. Democracy isn’t about choosing between parties, but having substantive input on direction that results in the will of the people being carried out. This is true of China, policy is typically driven from the bottom-up, a process called “whole process people’s democracy.” This is expressed, as an example, through Five Year Plans that are the result of mass polling and suggestions among the populace. The CPC has over 100 million members in a country of 1.4 billion.
The state isn’t a class in and of itself, it can only serve as representative of a class. In the PRC, that class is the working class. The communists beat the nationalists in the Chinese Civil War, and from that point on the working class has been in control.
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There are a lot of communists on Lemmy, and communists tend to support socialist countries. Simple as that. Plus, in the current era where the US Empire is dying, China is presenting itself as a better trade partner for the global south, one focused more on multilateralism and not on imperialism.
China is indeed authoritarian, rich people cannot shape society however they want in China.
This is your brain on black-and-white thinking
Nah dude, nobody talked about an in-between. China bad, and America going bad too. In his image op implies people think that because China bad, america cannot be lol. That’s stupid
Yall would be demonizing the Algerians or Vietnamese people fighting for their independence from France’s ruthless colonial rule as “authoritarian”, and “both sides bad”.
I was gonna reply stuff but I don’t see how I could gain anything from it ? I was initially saying op’s take implied something stupid (note that I’m not saying your scapegoats don’t exist; but if they do they’re probably a minority), and that yours created a kind of “moderate” persona who’s always in between political views to mock that other user’s comment about not everything being all black or white. Which I replied to by affirming China already black and america going darker.
And now you’re bringing more unrelated shit into athe situation lol. Isolating both china and america they both look like shit, albeit one more than the other. Idk who the fuck is in your “y’all” but it doesn’t really matter to me and I don’t feel targeted. I don’t know enough about the stuff you tried to push on me to properly debate anyways, so I’m just gonna go sleep and enjoy my night lol.
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Lemmy.ml has a ton of communists, communists tend to support socialist countries 🤷
At some point, you gotta dance with who brung ya. If, after over a century of experimentation, you conclude that every single AES state is as evil as the CIA tells us, there’s not much socialism to support.
You also really need to jam your eyes shut and ignore the enormous improvements in quality of life, even in the face of adverse economic headwinds, in the surviving socialist block. “Ah, but I’m not free to shitpost on the Internet the same way!” is such sad metric for a country’s success
You mean freedom of speech… That’s what you’re saying is not an important value? The freedom to speak truth to power without the goon squad kicking down your door? Clearly that is being eroded in the US right now, but China certainly doesn’t have it.
You mean freedom of speech…
I mean “posting online”.
The freedom to speak truth to power without the goon squad kicking down your door?
Has never existed in a practical sense within the United States. Not under Bush. Not under Eisenhower. Not under Woodrow Wilson. Not under James Buchanan. Not under John Adams.
Americans have a long and storied history of arresting outspoken dissidents, assaulting them, and disappearing anyone who persisted.
Clearly that is being eroded in the US right now
We have more political prisoners in jail today than China has had since the end of the colonial era.
China has it for the working class. Capitalist speech and misinformation are targeted, but the working class is largely free to say what they want.
It doesn’t exist, how is that hard to admit for you? Freedom of speech is intended to protect exactly the kind of speech you disagree with, otherwise it’s not a thing. “Largely free” = NOT FREE
Then nowhere has freedom of speech. True freedom of speech only exists for the ruling class of society, and the speech of those other classes oppressed by them that agree with the ruling class. In the US Empire, freedom of speech only truly exists for capitalists. In the PRC, it’s the opposite, it only exists for the working class, and those who do not oppose the working class.
China is about as socialist as my shit is a bouquet of roses.
It’s capitalism. It’s always capitalism.
False.
Is China State Capitalist?
- The backbone of the economy is state ownership and socialist planning. 24 / 25 of the top revenue companies are state-owned and planned. 70% of the top 500 companies are State-owned. 1, 2 The largest bank, construction, electricity, and energy companies in the world, are CPC controlled entities, subject to the 5 year plans laid out by the central committee.
- Workplace democracy in action in the CPC.
- Is modern day china communist? Is it staying true to communist values?
- Didn’t China go Capitalist with Deng Xiaoping? Didn’t it liberalize its economy? Is China’s drastic decrease in poverty a result of the increase in free market capitalist policies?
- Is the CPC committed to communism?
- The Long Game and Its Contradictions. Audiobook
- The myth of Chinese state capitalism. Did Deng really betray Chinese socialism?
- Tsinghua University- Is Socialism with Chinese Characteristics real socialism, or is it state Capitalism?
- Isn’t China revisionist for having a capitalist sector of the economy, and working with capitalists? Why isn’t it fully planned like the USSR was?
- Castro on why both China and Vietnam are socialist countries.
- Roderic Day - China has billionaires.
- What is socialism with Chinese characteristics (SWCC)?
- How is SWCC not revisionist? How is it any different from Gorbachev’s market reforms?, 2
- Domenico Losurdo - is China state capitalist?, 2
- Did Lenin say anything about Market Socialism, or productivism?
- Vijay Prashad - Is China capitalist?
- Why do Chinese billionaires keep ending up in prison? Why are many billionaires and CEOs going missing? China sentences Ex-Chairman of a major bank, guilty of embezzling ~$100M USD, to death in 2019.
- China cracks down on billionaires - Ben Norton interviews Ian Goodrum
- Do capitalists control the communist party? No, pic
- How the State runs business in China.
The large firms and key industries are overwhelmingly publicly owned, and the working class is in charge of the state. It’s been socialist since the CPC beat the Kuomintang. The presence of private property in a system doesn’t mean the system is capitalist, this was already understood in Marx’s time.
I just gotta pop in and say: thank you, comrades, for absolutely making my morning by dunking on some capitalists’ useful idiots.
I don’t know what it is about this post in particular, but the threadiverse isn’t sending its best 🤷
Edit to add: Some of them were so angry that they broke out their alt accounts to downvote some more.
I think some of the Reddit refuges honestly think Reddit sucks because Spez Man Bad. There’s no analysis of what creates Reddits and Spezes, and therefore they don’t recognize who made this platform and why.
I have to believe ultimately some of these people will come around, so that’s good at least.
Many do come around, Lemmy is quite good at radicalizing and educating in my experience.
I’m kind of new to lemmy in general and judging by the other comments I want to ask: is lemmy.ml full of ultras? Or is that what you’re talking about in saying they didn’t send their best?
If it is full of ultras, do you know of an instance(?) that either critically supports AES countries or at least has more of a mixed set of users? I don’t mind debate, but on every single comment it would get tiring.
Lemmy.ml is largely Marxist-Leninist, ultras are few on the fediverse. If you want an instance that is explicitly ML, then there’s Lemmygrad.ml. Hexbear.net is left-unity but doesn’t allow sectarianism, and is generally ML/anarchist, not generally ultra.
I have an account on lemmygrad as well so that’s good news to me. I’m now thinking that it’s more of an issue of me not fully grasping how the instances are organised having come from reddit.
Thanks for your input, my friend :)
No problem, comrade!
How frequent are alt-downvotes?
Yep, used to be very frequent. They’re easy to spot because they’re either no content accounts, or old accounts, with maybe 1 comment per month. We permaban them as they add nothing of value.
old accounts, with maybe 1 comment per month
Isn’t that just lurking behaviour?
If they are, its impossible to distinguish them from the targeted downvote bots ppl have written for lemmy.
Makes sense!
They get Rule 4, “No Ads / Spamming,” because they’re spamming votes.
Not as frequent as they used to be.
Gotcha.
Anytime comrade 🫡
US is in a situation where even the Chinese government can make fun of how undemocratic it is. I think this explains a lot.
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Nafo clown propagandists eating shit as usual.
Edit because you did an edit:
Authoritarian state
Wet water
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
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establish a platform discussing history of Tiennaman square or Uyghurs without strictly adhering to government set guidelines, then they will likely be prosecuted.
Tienanmen square has a 600 year history. You’re referring to one event, which is censored. But even that doesn’t cover the portion that is relevant to the history of Tiennaman, no part of the protests is censored. Uighur history also doesn’t have any censors.
It is true that you have been able to identify one censor in your two topics (albeit with inaccurate wording). It’s also a particularly sensitive topic with strong disinformation campaigns targetting it. In 2020, many states worldwide issued censors on COVID and vaccine related topics for similar reasons.
Freedom with the most people in prison
They’re not always in prison, sometimes we let them do their forced labor outside.
Agreed, the US prison system is legalized form of slavery
That is a camper van. Probably cozy tbh
What does a totalitarian state even mean? Based on liberals, left communists, and anarchists, it’s every socialist experiment that had lasted a great amount of time and accomplished better living standards for their citizens. 😂
System of a Down - The Prison Song
Yes, true
Thank God that in China you can’t simply be “disappeared”, you won’t be sent to reeducation camps, and you won’t be slaughtered.
Right?
Correct, you won’t.
Good thing you ate the capitalists’ propaganda onion and are now doing their work for free, contributing to your continued exploitation.
Meanwhile people actually are being disappeared in the US right now, and people actually are subjected to forced labor.
And you don’t think this happens in China?
I have no reason to believe people are being disappeared, no, but I do have reason to believe that the US and its junior partners will continue claiming that they are. It’s big business.
Just more western propaganda to push the china bad narrative
Yea yea yea, just keep parroting those liberal talking points ROFL
How much have you travelled, lived and worked in China? How far outside the tier 1 cities have you gotten?
If you think every criticism of China is just liberal talking points, I assume the answers to those questions are all “not very much”.
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I’m not from the USA.
What are we, a bunch of ASIANS?!
in only one of those countries do jackbooted thugs roam the streets disappearing undesirables and it isn’t China
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False. The US prison population (relative to total population) is more than five times superior to China’s. US prisons are for-profit and lease prisioners to perform slave labor for other companies.
China is not only freer than Trump’s US, it is freer than Obama’s or Clinton’s US.
By the way, US elections have only two viable parties by design. Billionaires control the media and campaing funding. The system allows two choices for the people:
- Republicans: the entire world, including its natural resources and its people, is the private property of 100 persons.
- Democrats: Agreed! But we impose gender quotas on this 100-persons elite. This makes us democratic ™.
Shit redditors say 😂
If the US acted more like China y’all could actually be the best country in the world like your delusional population believes.
Rising standards of living, life expectancy, housing for everyone, affordable healthcare and fresh produce. What horrors, they don’t even poison themselves with hormone burgers bro.
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What on earth do you mean by “totalitarian?” China’s a democratic country, if the US was acting more like China we’d actually have good infrastructure, manufacturing, democracy, and a coherent plan for the future. Sadly, the US isn’t a socialist country.
China’s a democratic country
You know how America’s two party system is bad and really just a shadow of democracy?
China has a one-party system.
Democracy doesn’t mean “the ability to vote between parties,” it means the ability for the people to dictate policy. Socialist democracy cares far more about the latter than the former, while capitalists sell the lie that the former is what democracy even means to begin with.
