• Juice@midwest.social
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    14
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    edit-2
    5 days ago

    So, not trying to step on any mines here, and I get this is literally only a 2D representation of a phenomenon.

    But what jumps out to me, is how “neurodivergence” is being defined kind of ahistorically. It supposes that neuro divergence is an essential, natural quality in humanity. That has real problems when we try to describe objective reality, especially the parts of us that aren’t tangible.

    Did ancient people mostly have 2 arms and legs, 10 fingers and toes at birth? Yeah, by all accounts. Were ancient people as intelligent as modern people? That question gets a little funky, because who and what gets defined as intelligent, is really historically and geographically dependent. European kings sent away to the most far flung monasteries to bring in trusted advisors who spoke multiple languages and could write awesome cursive; at the same time Fibonacci was bringing algebra and the foundations of calculus home from Turkiye and publishing them in Italy as brain teasers. Now cursive is worthless except as a craft, maybe some marketing, and calculus became the intellectual basis for the industrial revolution.

    So if “neuro divergence” can be defined historically like intelligence, which in some ways the graph itself supports this claim, then we can’t rely on an idea of human nature to make a point, especially since we are talking about scientific medical detection of a concrete divergence or disorder.

    So like, what is divergence? What is being diverged from? The baseline has always been a vibe.

    I’ve read studies that show better outcomes, increased happiness, better social integration measured among children and students with autism who spent time working on farms around animals. Structured, satisfying, hands on work, that used to make up most of the population. Now farmers is a micro minority, either owning land and charging people to work it, or working land for not enough money – hard, degrading, difficult, exceedingly dangerous work.

    Other factors like screen time, social media, increase in dietary simple sugars, all show measurable changes in behaviors of people with ADHD, social anxiety, autism, bipolar, borderline disorders. Academics like Michel Foucault have studied how mental health treatment and psychiatry (additionally schools, and hospitals) are directly descended from the development of mass imprisonment and incarceration during the industrial revolutions in England, France, Germany, etc.,

    Foucault also reviews sources that show more kind and forgiving attitudes in society toward people with severe social dysfunctions and intellectual disabilities. I wouldn’t go nearly as far as saying that people with disorders and divergences were better off – I believe that the medieval monastery was a “safe” place for a lot of people with what might now be described as neuro divergent, but also acknowledge the medieval church exploited poverty and mental illness for official and unofficial purposes.

    But it does raise the question of how people, who may be intellectually “equal,” when raised under different conditions develop quite differently. And the way our current system functions, it uses value judgments and certifications, etc., to slot me into a specific place. But once in that place, i have to almost be a certain kind of person in order to succeed. The role isn’t suited to the person filling it, but to the needs of the organization. And usually the org needs to make money.

    If there is greater social stigma towards disorder and divergence than there once was, that plays a major factor in whether people even want to be diagnosed. Lots of people have commented on self identification with neuro divergence as being a “tik tok trend” or some such. But a friend of mine, in an unofficial obit she wrote for someone older, made a point to say that previous generations looked at MH like it meant you were off to meet the business end of an ice pick.

    For myself, learning I have ADHD and treating it has been holistically helpful. I’m open about it with people, we will see if it bites me in the ass.

    I just worry a bit about the framing of “people have always been this way.” While I agree it is true in a way; I think our society is extremely stressful and toxic.

    And then to say that the baseline of neuro divergence is unchanged throughout time buys cover for people who are responsible for the environmental changes making people unwell, and getting richer because of it.

  • Obinice@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    9
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    5 days ago

    Does this graph account for the huge lack of available diagnosis?

    We’ve been on waiting lists for YEARS that only grow and grow to get a 2 hour appointment with someone who can diagnose us with ADHD.

    It’ll never happen, I’m sure. The government would rather not put resources into diagnosis, so they can claim almost nobody has ADHD, and not provide any support or recognition for it.

  • orioler25@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    2
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    edit-2
    5 days ago

    I mean, yes, visibility and legitimacy is a major element in why neurodiversity is more widely recognized. However, STEM folks tend to reassert the authority of science as an institution of capitalism and settler-colonialism by not recognizing that these are not “illnesses” or pathological conditions naturally. Yes, they are behaviours that we have no reason to believe are divergent or new from typical human life, and their status as pathological is conditional on the specific social and material conditions that are facilitated by this system.

    We are recognizing it more because it is covered more in scholarship, yes, but also because this system has created the conditions where we are even in the position to construct these behaviors as worthy of identifying to prove that they are real. If neurodiverse people didn’t have to justify their worthiness of human compassion and dignity just because they can’t conform to the expectations and demands of a system that only values human life for its productivity, then there’d be no distinction at all.

    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      5 days ago

      Oh, and what social system of order and productivity do you think should take over that authority? communism? anarchism?

      What is ‘typical human life’?

      Am i better off being beaten into submission and diagnosed and drugged by a communist expansionist dictatorship than a capitalist state of settler colonialism?

      • orioler25@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        5 days ago

        My eyes rolled so hard that I could hear them.

        I do not live under a communist or anarchist authority (as funny as it is to suggest there’d be an authoritarian anarchist system), and so I can only analyze the system I do live under. If you want to accept dehumanization for convenience and comfort, you can keep that to yourself. I do not, and therefore I criticize this system the way it deserves to be and do so to better understand how to build something better, whatever that may be.

        Either way, it was truly boring to read this comment. If structuralist and postmodern theory from fifty years ago is shocking to you, I’m afraid you aren’t the right person to be discussing this with me.

        • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          5 days ago

          Yes, you are so superior. Wow I am so dumb. I should just listen to you, you so smart.

          It can’t be that postmodern theory from 50 years ago is total naval gazing shit from pompous bourgeois academics types… who have enough money and power to sit around all day bitching about how oppressed they are and how much smarter they are than everyone else… weird how they dehumanize anyone who doesn’t agree with their theorizing… just you do.

          It can’t be that you yourself, are the very thing you hate so much? Perhaps you, are the system of oppression and misery you so loathe? because instead of being a productive memory of your society, you see yourself as too elevated and sophisticated to participate in it in a meaningful or productive way that would measurable improve it?

          • orioler25@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            4 days ago

            “Academic types … who have enough money and power…” Gee, that’d be the day. That prestige and wealth is largely denied to academics specifically because this sort of scholarship was so challenging to a capitalist system and so difficult to commodify.

            I’m honestly not sure what the rest of this is meant to mean in this context, as it is mostly incoherent anti-intellectualism that could not come from academic experience in the slightest. Quite literally, scholars are punished for doing what you claim to think they do here. They want you to have four publications and several community outreach initiatives before you’re even done your Ph.D. in many fields now.

            Also, it isn’t dehumanising to say you’re uninformed and wrong, humans do that all the time. To reduce that term to the meaning, “you were mean to me on the internet (I wasn’t),” is honestly gross and embarrassing. We use that term to explain cultures that systemically eradicate groups of people, you’re going to sit here and pretend you’ve experienced a fraction of that victimization in an internet comment thread? I’m not sure where you get off acting that entitled to deciding truth, but I wouldn’t even say something like that anonymously and be happy with myself that night.

            I won’t be reading anything else you send.

  • wpb@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    edit-2
    4 days ago

    Am I reading this meme right when I think it’s implying that folks are getting over-diagnosed with mental disorders? Because that’s some RFK jr shit. Shame on you.

    EDIT: I did misread it, I fully agree with OP.

  • Impractical_Island@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    5 days ago

    Doctors still haven’t figured out I’m telling the truth about how the military industrial complex is manipulating me as part of a case study to see if doctors are actually listening to their patients. I mean, I told my ROTC cadre that my nonexistent sister got me pregnant. What else would they have me do? Stare at goats? We got enough of those guys, so I hadda go learn how to be an idiot online to be of service to my country, amongst other things.