At this point, that’s kinda the wrong question.
I think Linux is just as if not more capable than Windows is, but the software library has some notable gaps in it. “It can’t run Adobe/Autodesk/Ubisoft” That’s not Linux’s fault, that’s Adobe/Autodesk/Ubisoft’s fault. I don’t think there’s a technical reason why they couldn’t release AutoCAD for Linux, for example.
so, due to those gaps, it currently can’t do those things.
This argument boils down to “yes it could, if someone bothered to implement it”. Well… nobody has, so it can’t
I think this is a misrepresentation. What more can Linux really do to get companies like this on board? It already has pretty much all anyone would need to support the platform: GUI toolkits, graphics drivers, etc. As far as I can see, Linux provides all the same functionality that other platforms do to support this, and considering that plenty of other companies support Linux just fine (Zoom, Steam, WPS office, etc.), in my opinion, it’s unfair to point fingers and say Linux is bad because other actors pointedly ignore it.
lots of stuff that “windows can do” is due to 3rd party software too.
Change your audio device seemingly at random.
I feel like any time I get a Teams call, my Windows audio goblin rolls a d20 to determine which combination of devices will be used.
And what volume your outgoing mic is at. After the pandemic, I’m numb to telling people over voice chat that they’re too quiet and should check the “levels” (in the hidden sound device menu) to see if windows conveniently set it to 5%.
Sometimes it would do this to people in real time while we’re talking. One friend couldn’t figure out why it was happening and just wrote a script to constantly set it back to 100%.
Spy on users
“popularity contest” is an opt-in on Debian. It’s not malicious, and it’s not for financial gain, but it is in a loose sense spying.
Spying on people OOTB without them knowing*
Ubuntu and DNF chuckles
Run Microsoft Office, Adobe Suit and most other media editing programs. The biggest hurdles in getting people to use Linux
That’s not so much a Linux problem as a Corporate greed problem.
Remember a big part in Windows mobile dying was its lack of Google support and not it itself lacking in any way
Add autodesk to that, and 99% of software used in aec or civil engineering or machine stuff (can’t remember name, foreigner drunk ugh)
CNC stuff??
I’m going to go with “be normal”.
Linux is unusual in a way that Windows is not. In a lot of areas (games, interfacing with weird hardware), Linux uses up one of your three innovation tokens in a way that Windows doesn’t. You are likely to be the only person or one of a very few people trying to do what you are doing or encountering the problem you are having on Linux, whereas there is often a much larger community of like-minded people to work with who are using Windows.
Sometimes the reverse is true: have fun being the only person trying to use a new CS algorithm released as a
.cand a Makefile on Windows proper without WSL.But that’s kind of why we have Wine and WSL: it’s often easier to pretend to be normal than to convince people to accommodate you.
Linux is unusual in a way that Windows is not.
That’s funny because IMO it’s the exact opposite. Every mainstream operating system is a Unix or Unix-like. MacOS, iOS, Android, the BSD’s, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, IRIX, etc. etc.
Windows is the only non-Unix OS that has any significant marketshare.
On phones Android is pretty typical, and on desktop Unix is also pretty typical because MacOS is it. But non-Mac Unix on the desktop is pretty unusual, and stuff built for Mac specifically often won’t work on other Unixes.
Natively run Windows software. Do I win?
Wine’s not an emulator…
That is correct, but a compatibility layer is also not native execution of a binary.
I beg you forgive my pedantic interjection, but … I posit that the original commenter is incorrect. it is absolutely native execution.
The CPU is fetching and executing the instructions directly from memory, without any (additional) interpretation of code or emulation of missing instructions - Which is, by definition, native execution.
What the compatibility layer “does” is provide a mapping of Windows system calls into the appropriate Linux system calls. Or, in other words, makes it so that calls to functions like
CreateWindowEx()in the Win32 API have a (still native) execution path.The native execution requires you to install WINE, yes, but if we’re disqualifying it because “it requires you to install a package”, then we also consequently:
- Add things like “print stuff”, “display graphical applications”, and “play audio” to the list of “things Linux can’t do”
- Disqualifies Windows from “natively executing” any .NET applications (a Microsoft-built first-party framework), since .NET applications require you to install .NET.
You’re right, you are being pedantic.
You’re correct in that it is a compatibility layer - And I’m not disagreeing with that. Also to be clear: Not just arguing to argue or trying to start a fight, mind you. I just find this to be an interesting topic of discussion. If you don’t find it to be a fun thought experiment, feel free to shoo me away and I’ll apologize and leave it alone.
That said, we appear to only be arguing semantics - Specifically around “native” having multiple contextual definitions:
-
I am using ‘native’ to mean “the instructions are executed directly by the CPU, rather than through interpretation or emulation” … which WINE definitely enables for Windows executables running on Linux. It’s the reason why Proton/DXVK enables gaming with largely equal (and sometimes faster) performance: There is no interception of execution, there is simply provision of API endpoints. Much like creating a symlink in a directory where something expects it to be: tricking it into thinking the thing(s) it needs are where it expects them to be.
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However, you are using ‘native’ to mean “within the environment intended by the developer”, and if that’s the agreed definition then you’re correct.
That’s where this becomes an interesting thought experiment to me. It hits me as a very subjective definition for “native”, since “within the intended environment” could mean a lot of things.
- Is that just ‘within a system that provides an implementation of the Win32 API’? If so, WINE passes that test.
- If I provide an older/fixed/patched version of a DLL (by just placing it in the same directory) to fix an issue caused by a breaking change to a program that is running on Windows, is that no longer native?
- Or is it just ultimately that the machine must run the NT kernel, since that’s where the developer intended for it to run?
Does that make sense? I hear a statement like that and I find myself wondering Which layer along the chain makes it “native”? - I find myself curious at what point the definition changes, in a “Ship of Theseus” kind of way.
It seems to me that if we agree that the above means “running in WINE is not native”, then we must also agree that “anything written running for .NET (or any other framework, really) is not native”, since .NET apps are written for the .NET framework (Which is not only officially available for Windows, mind you) and often don’t include anything truly Windows-specific. Ultimately, both are providing natively-executed instructions that just translate API calls to the appropriate system calls under the hood.
I hope that does a better job of characterizing what I meant.
You clearly know more about this than I do, and you’ve thought a lot about it. Your points deserve a better response than I can give at this time, but I wanted to acknowledge that at least. I also wanted to say you aren’t pedantic and I’m sorry I said that. You spent time and thought on making a good conversation and I wish I had been more engaging with that instead of trying to be correct. Thank you for still conversing instead of arguing even after I was less than perfect of a conversation partner. I hope in the future I see more of your comments. Have a really nice day.
I appreciate your acknowledgement - and I commend the humility it takes to write a comment like this! No hard feelings at all, and I hope things are pleasant for you as well.
It’s folks like you and interactions like this that make Lemmy a platform worth engaging on.
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You windows
Windows does what Nintendon’t? Wait, that’s not it…
that why i like windows 11. you can really taste the nativity
Wait, 11 tastes like goat barn and frankincense?
its mostly goat barn
You misspelled “naivety” lol
I’d say large scale enterprise end user deployment and management solutions. It’s one of the core businesses of Microsoft and nothing comes close to it yet unfortunately.
Selling copies for 200$
inverted (color) mouse cursor / pointer
Hit the ground running deploying…pretty much anything.
Was running game servers on my Windows PC through Docker and they were super easy to set up. I got a new PC and decided to repurpose my old computer into an Ubuntu server to get some experience with Unix. I have only been more frustrated once in my entire life. Sure, once things are set up on Linux they are really powerful, but the barrier to entry is so absurdly high and running anything “out of the box” is literally impossible by design.
That’s very weird as with docker on windows you technically run your containers in a linux vm, and besides that, in my experience windows is not nearly stable enough to be useful for running services.
All while I have been deploying selfhosted services for myself without problems on Linux for years. My only problem has been the constantly overloaded system, but that’s no surprise when you run heavy services on the 10+ year old portable hard drive system disk. Windows would only perform worse in that environment.Erm I’ll politely disagree there. Linux is just built for it. No extra layer like Windows. Docker and Linux are besties
Don’t get me wrong - I know that they are, and I know that Linux is superior for running docker containers. The thing is that Windows handles all the permissions for you. An average Joe can get a docker container up and running on Windows. You need significantly more Linux-specific knowledge to get a container running on Linux, and the advice given by the community is often cryptic for beginners.
I feel your pain, ugh. Setting up certain types of software can be a pain in the ass because there’s almost always dependencies that need to be set up first; in addition, it’s not always clear what you’re supposed to install or how to do it the right way. A lot of Linux-related documentation out there isn’t geared towards beginners and leaves out a lot of important explanatory and contextual information, which just makes it more frustrating. Unnecessarily, in my opinion.
However, I gotta mention that Ubuntu - though widely used - is sorta notorious for being user unfriendly and isn’t always the most appropriate choice for a beginner Linux user. If anyone reading this is thinking about trying Linux for the first time, I would consider Linux Mint. It’s a Linux distro that is actually based on Ubuntu (which is based on Debian), but it works “out of the box” better than most and should be a positive experience for most users. It’s pretty solid.
In my experience, most package managers should set up dependencies by themselves! Though, I do agree with the lack of explanation of documentation.
I use arch by the way, but what’s your opinion of other “user-friendly” distros like Manjaro or Garuda?
Truth!
The person is correct in this isn’t a Linux problem, but relates to your experience.
Windows worked by giving everyone full permissions and opening every port. While Microsoft has tried to roll that back the administration effort goes into restricting access.
Linux works on the opposite principle, you have to learn how to grant access to users and expose ports.
You would have to learn this mental switch no matter what Linux task your trying to learn
Dockers guide to setting up a headless docker is copy/paste. You can install Docker Desktop on Linux and the effort is identical to windows. The only missing step is
sudo usermod -aG docker $userTo ensure your user can access the docker host as a local user.
That’s a letter U problem. I can administer Linux a bajillion times easier than windows, because I do it for a living, and haven’t touched MS since Server 2010. Also Docker in Windows is LOL. You’re leveraging Linux to shit on Linux. Lets do that all in IIS and see how you feel.
Yeah, I started working for a company with a lot of Windows servers two years ago and I still can’t wrap my brain around them. I’ve been a Linux sysadmin/sysarchitect for 20+ years and I’m still completely lost how to get Windows to much of anything. I usually don’t have to do much on those servers, but when I do its StackOverflow that’s really administering them. It’s because I lack foundational knowledge about windows and also because I’m fine not having that knowledge.
IIS is not the same as Docker. Sounds to me you are shitting on IIS for the sake of trying to prove a point I wasn’t trying to make.
This goes into my next point. Linux users are toxic as hell. They are elitist snobs who shit on newbies because they have years of experience.
This is a very dangerous, and unfortunately widespread, generalization. The shitty ones are the loudest ones, and I’m sorry that most of your experience with linux users has been with them. I promise, much of the community are kindhearted individuals who simply use linux because of its ideals, or because they’re developers, or privacy enthusiasts, or those who bought a steam deck and think the lack of windows is pretty neat.
This. This is truth!
This is what’s holding the community back. The “get good” advice isn’t really advice and keeps Linux from hitting the mainstream. I get it you’re amazing at Linux but the rest of us shouldn’t have to go back to school to get a computer degree and become a Linux professional in order to use it. This is the same person that replies to questions about Linux with “why do you need the GUI just use the command line instead or it’s dead simple just type: followed by like 80 lines of code that people can’t make heads or tails of because they’re novices. Man I get that you want to flex but it’s a pretty strange flex.
OTOH, many people can’t make heads from tails regarding windows, icons or buttons, and they don’t get the contextual clues that the GUI gives for any operating system. They don’t see them, and if they do they’re unable to make the automatic inferences most of us long time users obtain from them. They act as people who are blind from birth and suddenly see, who have problems to understand tridimensionality; the GUI is not in their mind model of how to work with computers, and they have a lot of difficulty interacting with it.
Is your point meant to be that these people who already have trouble learning GUIs would somehow have an easier time intuiting command line?
If that’s correct, that’s an absolutely BS argument
Is your point meant to be that these people who already have trouble learning GUIs would somehow have an easier time intuiting command line?
No, my point is that they’re lost causes and they’re untrainable.
No, my point is that they’re lost causes and they’re untrainable.
Ah… I still don’t get how that’s meant to refute the previous person’s point that elitism and the “git gud” attitude around Linux contributes to it’s inability to become mainstream.
If anything your reply only reinforces their point, because you seem to be suggesting we throw anybody who struggles to learn it to the curb.
So that makes the “get good” advice valid? What are you talking about bro? I didn’t say Linux isn’t valid. I think you must have replied to me specifically on accident because your response isn’t germane to my reply. Or if you feel it is please explain. Make sure you use as many polysyllabic words as possible. I think you wrote up one of the Linux documents I’m to understand.
Or maybe I’ll just say: cool story bro.
So that makes the “get good” advice valid?
No, they’re untrainable. It’s literally impossible for them to get any good. At all.
Perfect. Good solution. Linux only for the elite.
LinuxComputers only for theelitepeople willing to engage their brains.FTFY
Pointing out that you find it easy because you do it for a living isn’t a very good counter to their point - most people do other things besides Linux for a living
Restore the screen resolution when an old game crashes
run them through gamescope then
Windows is definitely easier to install older programs on. Linux is getting better, especially thanks to steam/valve imo, but it’s impossible to recommend Linux to just about anyone that’s not in IT or interested in tech as everything seems to have a caviat or workaround you have to do to get stuff either working or just limping along. For instance…I installed endeavor on my msi gaming laptop and getting it to use my 2070 card over my Intel graphics was a nightmare for a first timer. I can’t recommend it especially when I just wanna game.
Embed ads on your desktop.
Play games with kernal level anti cheat
Run professional software like fusion 360, Adobe suite and much more.
Use Wsl to get a lot of the benefits of linux
I’ve put more work into getting wsl to work at work than I have my home linux machines. it’s just so unreliable for some reason. I ended up just giving up and running a full vm instead, and it’s so much nicer since I can just pretend windows doesn’t exist
Same here. It’s nice that I can do some of regular Linux flow on my laptop but it’s so much to get to consistently just work .
Especially when enabling wsl is incompatible with running a VM. I want to run VM not only for Linux! Yeah just installing a full vm is better.
Fusion 360 actually works under Linux with Bottles. Some other Autodesk products also have native Linux versions.
Play all my laptop’s speakers
Same, or use the fingerprint reader.
drivers for lots of printers. no fuss gpu drivers. zero computer knowledge required.
