My point has nothing to do with the PA and is not an assessment or comparison between the PA and Hamas and who is doing the more effective work today. I believe Israel has been committing a slow genocide in Palestine ever since 1948 that has recently turned into an outright in your face genocide. Israel is a genocidal apartheid settler colonial ethnostate. I am not anti Hamas and understand their position that armed conflict is their only choice against total destruction.
I would also known what the point exactly of saying israel used Hamas to sabotage the PLO
The point of saying it is to show that Israel funded a group of religious extremists to destroy Yasser Arafat’s PLOs progress towards peace and a two state solution.
Israel found it difficult to demonise the secular PLO to Western audiences. Muslims are a much easier enemy to forment in western minds. Israel has been one of the major international forces driving islamophobia in western minds, manufacturing consent for the middle eastern forever wars the west has been in for the last few decades (ironic considering the Israelis love screaming “antisemitism” over the slightest perceived slight ).
How can it be used to help palestinians today.
By understanding how Israel has been manufacturing consent in the consent to view Muslims as lesser and lower the Western audiences sympathy when it comes to Israel’s genocide of Arabic and now Iranian people. It is hard to argue that Israel has not been success in its task when watching the framing of this conflict in western media.
If it was a good faith argument , people would mention that the plo fall for it
This is not necessary for it to be a good faith argument, I struggle to comprehend your line of thought here?
The PLO didn’t fall for anything either, they called out Israel’s actions at the time but had little power to actually do anything about it as they didn’t control the media narrative. This is still irrelevant to whether or not the argument is in good faith or not.
The point of saying it is to show that Israel funded a group of religious extremists to destroy Yasser Arafat’s PLOs progress towards peace and a two state solution.
Israel did not fund Hamas. Qatar send funds to the Hamas goverment. Israel allowed the fund to pass just like they allow fund and goods to pass in the west bank.
The statement make it looks like Hamas had no legitimate concerns about the oslo accords. They was proves to be right. During the talks israel increased settlements. Rabin did not agree to a full independent palestinians state with all it’s rights and all the territories sized in 67. Rsbin used the term less than a state. The intention is exactly what is currently implemented in the west bank
By not fully recognizing Hamas winning the election Fatah part of the plo fell for it. Both hamas and the plo also dhare the same responsability for the violence between them
Israel found it difficult to demonise the secular PLO to Western audiences.
It was never difficult for israel to demonize the plo and the plo far less secular than you think
The PLO didn’t fall for anything either, they called out Israel’s actions at the time but had little power to actually do anything about it as they didn’t control the media narrative. This is still irrelevant to whether or not the argument is in good faith or not.
Isrsel never stopped stealing more land , arming and defending settlers with the PA collaboration.
What is irelevant is the narative that hamas is only israel’s tool. Thr relevant part is that the PA is collaborating with Israel knowing very well. At some point israel could annex the west bank
Israel did not fund Hamas. Qatar send funds to the Hamas goverment.
I am not talking about this funding, I am speaking about their early funding, back before they were even called Hamas. Yitzek Segev, former Israeli general and military governor of Gaza in the early 1980s admitted as much in an interview with the New York Times.
You seem obsessed with defending Hamas’s autonomy to the point where you are blinded to Israel’s larger game plan. The fact that Israel provided funding to Hamas in its early days does not delegitimise Hamas as an organisation.
Mujama al-Islamiya and hamas are two different organizations funded by the same person. There is no evidence that the funds dedicated to Mujama was used for hamas. Israel also financed secular groups like Village Leagues.
The fact is that certian cunning people want you to believe that Hamas is not a resistance group that retaliate for israel colonial policies and war crimes. They want you to believe it is a simple tool for Israel. You are falling into israel game. I want the plo to back to it’s root as a real liberation . Israel has been breaching the oslo accords for decades. Doing slow genocide in the west bank
You don’t seem to understand that Hamas can be both an indigenous resistance group retaliating against Israel and financed by Israel in its early years as a religious counterbalance to the secular PLO.
You also don’t seem to understand how it is beneficial to Israel to be fighting a group like Hamas over the PLO in how Israel presents this conflict to the media and the world. Israel can point at Hamas and say “look at these Muslim extremists, you can’t negotiate with them. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, looks what Hamas do to women and gays! This war is to do with religion, the Muslims always want to destroy the Jews.”
This narrative was not possible against the PLO, if you can’t see how this situation favours Israel when selling the story to the Western audiences and how Israel much prefers it this way you are hopelessly myopic.
You don’t seem to understand that Hamas can be both an indigenous resistance group retaliating against Israel and financed by Israel in its early years as a religious counterbalance to the secular PLO.
I understand that hamas is an islamist group that have an different ideology to plo. What you are ignoring is that despite that Hamas colaborate with non islamist groups. The problem is that your argument is used to deligetimize Hamas as a resistsnce group.
You also don’t seem to understand how it is beneficial to Israel to be fighting a group like Hamas over the PLO in how Israel presents this conflict to the media and the world. Israel can point at Hamas and say “look at these Muslim extremists, you can’t negotiate with them. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, looks what Hamas do to women and gays! This war is to do with religion, the Muslims always want to destroy the Jews.” This narrative was not possible against the PLO, if you can’t see how this situation favours Israel when selling the story to the Western audiences and how Israel much prefers it this way you are hopelessly myopic.
Yes, I don’t understand. Before hamas. Israel was talking about how the plo is a terrrorist group blowing up israelis . Nothing changed. They will always find an excuse and someone to blame .
But most people are not dumb. They undwrstand settler colonialism is one of the worst thing ever , worse than religious extremists. They know that torturing people, raping people, stealing their homes is bad. Rhey understand that an occupied population can’t be worse than an occupier
What you are ignoring is that despite that Hamas colaborate with non islamist groups.
I do not dispute or ignore this
The problem is that your argument is used to deligetimize Hamas as a resistsnce group.
I don’t agree with you here, you are viewing this issue as black and white, ignoring the shades of grey that most of the world actually lives in. In trying to undermine their opponent Israel helped create a new one that was more violent and aggressive. It initially looks as though this was a mistake by Israel but it was the subtext for the subsequent genocide in Gaza.
The point is not to delegitimise Hamas but to show how the Israeli propaganda and colonial expansion work hand in hand.
But most people are not dumb
You give people too much credit, the evidence all around us including but not limited to what is happening in Gaza should be proof of this. Mass media indoctrination of islamophobia over the last 30 years has achieved its goal of manufacturing the consent required to dehumanise Muslim people in the Middle East. If people understood there would never have been a genocide in Gaza.
They undwrstand settler colonialism is one of the worst thing ever
The vast majority of people don’t understand that Israel is a settler colonial state in the first place and think the Jewish population has always been in “Israel”.
The narrative that hamas was created simply to oppose the “secular” plo don’t work because Hamas collaborate with non Islamists .
In trying to undermine their opponent Israel helped create a new one that was more violent and aggressive. It initially looks as though this was a mistake by Israel but it was the subtext for the subsequent genocide in Gaza.
Israel can make mistakes. Israel did not expect Hamas to become as strong and didn’t expect a revolution in Iran, making Iran the main backer of all major resistance groups toward Israel. As a settler-colonial power, the only choice is for resistance groups to be more violent and aggressive, but without retaliating on innocent civilians. The peaceful way was already tried. The situation in the West Bank is another failure of the peaceful method.
Without Hamas, Israel wouldn’t have been forced to remove the settlers and rely on external occupation to avoid casualties.
You give people too much credit, the evidence all around us including but not limited to what is happening in Gaza should be proof of this. Mass media indoctrination of islamophobia over the last 30 years has achieved its goal of manufacturing the consent required to dehumanise Muslim people in the Middle East.
Islamophobia is the hate of Islam, not only Islamists, so Islamophobic people would still not support Palestine when the PLO is also majoritarily Muslim. Having non-Muslim resistance groups as the most powerful groups will never happen.
If people understood there would never have been a genocide in Gaza.
Wrong. If no countries had recognized and built relations with Israel after the Nakba, the genocide would never have happened.
Before Hamas even existed, the Western countries’ populations were more supportive of Israel than Palestine. Imagine saying “I support Israel” just after the Nakba, where 850,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, including 50,000 Christians.
The narrative that hamas was created simply to oppose the “secular” plo don’t work because Hamas collaborate with non Islamists .
Again, I never said this, I don’t know where you’re getting this from. I said that Israel assisted many non-secular groups, what became Hamas was merely one of them. Israel created nothing, they certainly assisted them in their early days.
Your assertion that because Hamas works with non Islamists they couldn’t have been created to oppose the secular PLO makes no logical sense. I don’t even understand how this point makes sense in your head?
Islamophobia is the hate of Islam, not only Islamists, so Islamophobic people would still not support Palestine when the PLO is also majoritarily Muslim
You really just don’t understand what I am saying do you? You also clearly don’t understand the game Israel is playing here. You do not understand the multifaceted plan that the Israeli leadership is currently playing out to steal the entirely of Palestine. You are focusing on one small issue but completely missing the bigger picture. I have tried but I don’t think I can help you understand.
Wrong. If no countries had recognized and built relations with Israel after the Nakba, the genocide would never have happened.
Again missing the point completely.
Before Hamas even existed, the Western countries’ populations were more supportive of Israel than Palestine. Imagine saying “I support Israel” just after the Nakba
It’s like you don’t even understand the difference between the media landscapes then and now or how now that people can actually see what is going on their opinions are shifting. This is an important moment in Palestine’s future and you are choosing to fight a pointless fight on the early days of Hamas because in your mind Hamas mush be pure, any Israeli contamination, even funding in their early days somehow delegitimises Hamas. It does not delegitimise Hamas one bit, purity tests like this only harm revolution. Sometimes it takes a bad thing to kill an even worse thing.
My point has nothing to do with the PA and is not an assessment or comparison between the PA and Hamas and who is doing the more effective work today. I believe Israel has been committing a slow genocide in Palestine ever since 1948 that has recently turned into an outright in your face genocide. Israel is a genocidal apartheid settler colonial ethnostate. I am not anti Hamas and understand their position that armed conflict is their only choice against total destruction.
The point of saying it is to show that Israel funded a group of religious extremists to destroy Yasser Arafat’s PLOs progress towards peace and a two state solution.
Israel found it difficult to demonise the secular PLO to Western audiences. Muslims are a much easier enemy to forment in western minds. Israel has been one of the major international forces driving islamophobia in western minds, manufacturing consent for the middle eastern forever wars the west has been in for the last few decades (ironic considering the Israelis love screaming “antisemitism” over the slightest perceived slight ).
By understanding how Israel has been manufacturing consent in the consent to view Muslims as lesser and lower the Western audiences sympathy when it comes to Israel’s genocide of Arabic and now Iranian people. It is hard to argue that Israel has not been success in its task when watching the framing of this conflict in western media.
This is not necessary for it to be a good faith argument, I struggle to comprehend your line of thought here?
The PLO didn’t fall for anything either, they called out Israel’s actions at the time but had little power to actually do anything about it as they didn’t control the media narrative. This is still irrelevant to whether or not the argument is in good faith or not.
Israel did not fund Hamas. Qatar send funds to the Hamas goverment. Israel allowed the fund to pass just like they allow fund and goods to pass in the west bank.
The statement make it looks like Hamas had no legitimate concerns about the oslo accords. They was proves to be right. During the talks israel increased settlements. Rabin did not agree to a full independent palestinians state with all it’s rights and all the territories sized in 67. Rsbin used the term less than a state. The intention is exactly what is currently implemented in the west bank
By not fully recognizing Hamas winning the election Fatah part of the plo fell for it. Both hamas and the plo also dhare the same responsability for the violence between them
It was never difficult for israel to demonize the plo and the plo far less secular than you think
Isrsel never stopped stealing more land , arming and defending settlers with the PA collaboration.
What is irelevant is the narative that hamas is only israel’s tool. Thr relevant part is that the PA is collaborating with Israel knowing very well. At some point israel could annex the west bank
I am not talking about this funding, I am speaking about their early funding, back before they were even called Hamas. Yitzek Segev, former Israeli general and military governor of Gaza in the early 1980s admitted as much in an interview with the New York Times.
You seem obsessed with defending Hamas’s autonomy to the point where you are blinded to Israel’s larger game plan. The fact that Israel provided funding to Hamas in its early days does not delegitimise Hamas as an organisation.
Mujama al-Islamiya and hamas are two different organizations funded by the same person. There is no evidence that the funds dedicated to Mujama was used for hamas. Israel also financed secular groups like Village Leagues.
The fact is that certian cunning people want you to believe that Hamas is not a resistance group that retaliate for israel colonial policies and war crimes. They want you to believe it is a simple tool for Israel. You are falling into israel game. I want the plo to back to it’s root as a real liberation . Israel has been breaching the oslo accords for decades. Doing slow genocide in the west bank
You don’t seem to understand that Hamas can be both an indigenous resistance group retaliating against Israel and financed by Israel in its early years as a religious counterbalance to the secular PLO.
You also don’t seem to understand how it is beneficial to Israel to be fighting a group like Hamas over the PLO in how Israel presents this conflict to the media and the world. Israel can point at Hamas and say “look at these Muslim extremists, you can’t negotiate with them. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, looks what Hamas do to women and gays! This war is to do with religion, the Muslims always want to destroy the Jews.” This narrative was not possible against the PLO, if you can’t see how this situation favours Israel when selling the story to the Western audiences and how Israel much prefers it this way you are hopelessly myopic.
I understand that hamas is an islamist group that have an different ideology to plo. What you are ignoring is that despite that Hamas colaborate with non islamist groups. The problem is that your argument is used to deligetimize Hamas as a resistsnce group.
Yes, I don’t understand. Before hamas. Israel was talking about how the plo is a terrrorist group blowing up israelis . Nothing changed. They will always find an excuse and someone to blame .
But most people are not dumb. They undwrstand settler colonialism is one of the worst thing ever , worse than religious extremists. They know that torturing people, raping people, stealing their homes is bad. Rhey understand that an occupied population can’t be worse than an occupier
I do not dispute or ignore this
I don’t agree with you here, you are viewing this issue as black and white, ignoring the shades of grey that most of the world actually lives in. In trying to undermine their opponent Israel helped create a new one that was more violent and aggressive. It initially looks as though this was a mistake by Israel but it was the subtext for the subsequent genocide in Gaza.
The point is not to delegitimise Hamas but to show how the Israeli propaganda and colonial expansion work hand in hand.
You give people too much credit, the evidence all around us including but not limited to what is happening in Gaza should be proof of this. Mass media indoctrination of islamophobia over the last 30 years has achieved its goal of manufacturing the consent required to dehumanise Muslim people in the Middle East. If people understood there would never have been a genocide in Gaza.
The vast majority of people don’t understand that Israel is a settler colonial state in the first place and think the Jewish population has always been in “Israel”.
The narrative that hamas was created simply to oppose the “secular” plo don’t work because Hamas collaborate with non Islamists .
Israel can make mistakes. Israel did not expect Hamas to become as strong and didn’t expect a revolution in Iran, making Iran the main backer of all major resistance groups toward Israel. As a settler-colonial power, the only choice is for resistance groups to be more violent and aggressive, but without retaliating on innocent civilians. The peaceful way was already tried. The situation in the West Bank is another failure of the peaceful method.
Without Hamas, Israel wouldn’t have been forced to remove the settlers and rely on external occupation to avoid casualties.
Islamophobia is the hate of Islam, not only Islamists, so Islamophobic people would still not support Palestine when the PLO is also majoritarily Muslim. Having non-Muslim resistance groups as the most powerful groups will never happen.
Wrong. If no countries had recognized and built relations with Israel after the Nakba, the genocide would never have happened.
Before Hamas even existed, the Western countries’ populations were more supportive of Israel than Palestine. Imagine saying “I support Israel” just after the Nakba, where 850,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, including 50,000 Christians.
Again, I never said this, I don’t know where you’re getting this from. I said that Israel assisted many non-secular groups, what became Hamas was merely one of them. Israel created nothing, they certainly assisted them in their early days.
Your assertion that because Hamas works with non Islamists they couldn’t have been created to oppose the secular PLO makes no logical sense. I don’t even understand how this point makes sense in your head?
You really just don’t understand what I am saying do you? You also clearly don’t understand the game Israel is playing here. You do not understand the multifaceted plan that the Israeli leadership is currently playing out to steal the entirely of Palestine. You are focusing on one small issue but completely missing the bigger picture. I have tried but I don’t think I can help you understand.
Again missing the point completely.
It’s like you don’t even understand the difference between the media landscapes then and now or how now that people can actually see what is going on their opinions are shifting. This is an important moment in Palestine’s future and you are choosing to fight a pointless fight on the early days of Hamas because in your mind Hamas mush be pure, any Israeli contamination, even funding in their early days somehow delegitimises Hamas. It does not delegitimise Hamas one bit, purity tests like this only harm revolution. Sometimes it takes a bad thing to kill an even worse thing.